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Oliver Shaw
ModeratorI fully concur with Norman’s answers, to both questions.
The boat is not a desperately old one, so provided she has been properly looked after and properly stored there should be no problems. But do of course have a detailed and general look around, and lift the floorboards to check the state of the bottom.
If you do buy her, for your intended use it might be sensible to consider fitting a means of reefing, preferably jiffy/slab reefing on the main, and a good roller reefing system on the genoa; and if the budget permits (or if you are offered the option of a good second-hand suit) it might be worth buying dedicated cruising sails. They are cut and built differently from racing sails, and from different cloth, because they are designed for a different purpose; they will usually be cut flatter, they will be designed to set well when reefed as well as when full, and they will be more tolerant of the rough handling that is sometimes inevitable when cruising (e.g. being crumpled up in the bottom of the boat and then sat on). If, either now or in the future, you end up buying brand new cruising sails, Edge Sails seem to be the preferred make for cruising sails, and certainly I was very well pleased with the suit that they made for A Capella back in 2007.
You might like to consider fitting oars and crutches (rowlocks), and even for lake sailing I would recommend that you carry an anchor. The latter will be particularly useful for cruising, since you may on occasion wish to go ashore for a picnic and anchor the boat off; but do then run a trip line ashore.
You may also wish to switch the mainsheet sheeting from from a racing arrangement (most popular is the near ubiquitous split tail sheet led ultimately to the centre of the boat) to transom sheeting. Many helmsmen feel that centre sheeting (or, better, the split tail system) is preferable for racing, but transom sheeting is preferable for cruising. It is an easy modification, and indeed some skippers who regularly do both have their boats set up so that they can use either system, according to what the boat is being used for on any particular occasion.
Oliver
Oliver Shaw
ModeratorLooks good.
But where depth of water permits, you will find less tiller load – and less load on the rudder blade – with the rudder blade further down.
The original design was for the blade to be angled aft, and although I am not sure quite how far aft it went I don’t think it was as much as on your photo “c” (and I realise that on photo “b” the blade is fully raised so I presume that this is because you were in only a few inches of water at the time). However by about the time your boat was built – certainly at some point in the late sixties (or just possibly the very early seventies) but I cannot verify the precise date – the rules were changed to permit the blade to drop to fully vertical, and this is a significant improvement.
The modification is simple, just a matter of very slightly cutting back the shoulder on the blade, and I feel sure that I made the modification on my then GP14 before I bought my first yacht, which was in 1972, because after that I largely moved away from the GP14 in favour of the yacht. My best guess on date is that I did the modification towards the end of the sixties.
Hope this helps,
Oliver
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This reply was modified 7 years, 2 months ago by
Oliver Shaw.
Oliver Shaw
ModeratorWhen you come to renew the deck I would be inclined to replace the existing failing plywood with new marine ply. That will be simpler than strip planking, it will be the material that the boat was designed to use; and my guess is that it will be lighter for a given strength, particularly strength across the grain.
Longevity should be all that you are likely to require; the existing ply has lasted 55 years, despite evidence of neglect, and the best of modern marine ply is surely at least as good as was available when the boat was built. Naturally I don’t know the US market, but the leading UK supplier (Robbins) offers a choice of grades and types of marine ply, with guarantees of up to 25 years. http://www.robbins.co.uk/marine/sheet_materials.asp
As regards appearance, their stripey sapele (Tiger-Elite) is very popular on modern boats, and looks superb, although it may be an anachronism on Spark; but I am not totally sure just how long ago this product appeared on the market. But I know of one boat substantially older than Spark which has been redecked in this material.
For historical accuracy you would be absolutely playing safe with either their Super-Elite or Super-Elite Plus, the choice depending purely on what colour of surface you want.
You may well find a US supplier who can offer a similar range, or alternatively you may find that Robbins can ship it out. In particular, you may find that shipping is available fairly economically if there is no urgency, and the shipper can simply put the material in the top of a part-full container when they have one available.
The minimum deck thickness permitted under Class Rules is 4 mm, but I understand that 5 mm is generally recommended for cruising boats.
Hope this helps,
Oliver
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This reply was modified 7 years, 2 months ago by
Oliver Shaw. Reason: Typo
Oliver Shaw
ModeratorExcellent! Congratulations!
I am mildly intrigued by the green strap across the stern deck, bearing down on the tiller. Is that intended as a tiller brake, to allow you to leave the tiller unattended for short periods? How well does it work when it is that far aft?
I had a length of shockcord (bungee cord) doing that job on A Capella, which proved an excellent system, but I had it very much further forward, almost at the end of the tiller, and the ends were secured underneath the side decks. I tended to leave it rigged across the boat almost all the time, removing it only for racing, and then in one quick movement I could either disengage it by positioning it beneath the tiller or engage it by lifting it onto the tiller; it was far enough forward to be able to pull it between those two positions by passing it forward of the end of the tiller.
If you have occasion to moor alongside a dock, or another boat, you will find those bronze horn cleats useful for securing your mooring lines; although it they weren’t there the sheet horse could be used instead. But the proper cleats are more convenient – although if you are planing hard on a very broad reach you may want to sit there …
Oliver
Oliver Shaw
ModeratorFirst, please try to identify more precisely where the water is coming in.
E.g. is it between plywood and hog, or via a split in the plywood, or between hog and centreboard case, or through splits in the centreboard case, or past the centreboard pivot bolt, or via the self-bailers, or via the transom flaps?
One way to attempt to ascertain this is to get the boat fully dry, remove the floorboards, then launch her, and immediately look to see where the water first starts to appear. If that fails, or if you need an additional check, bring her ashore again, put her on her launching trolley or otherwise support her, get the outside of the hull dry, then put a little water inside her – just two or three inches depth, and see where it comes out underneath.
Once we know where the leak is we may be able to advise, but until we have that information there is not a lot anyone can do by correspondence.
Hope this helps,
Oliver
Oliver Shaw
ModeratorChris, and anyone else with a similar issue,
You are correct that allowing the rudder blade to drop to the vertical will reduce the load on the tiller; that is a modification to the original design which was permitted from about the late sixties.
What it will not do is to address fundamental imbalance; if you previously needed a particular angle of rudder to keep the boat on course you will still need roughly the same angle, so it will still be slowing you down just as much. The cure for that lies in how you trim the boat, and the rig.
A very common mistake made by GP14 sailors, particularly non-racers, is to allow the boat to heel. That will inevitably generate significant weather helm – and the GP14 is not alone in this. This is a characteristic of many dinghies, perhaps most, and also of a great many yachts. As an absolute first priority, make sure that you keep her upright; and if necessary be prepared to spill wind, or to reef, in order to achieve that.
Another very common mistake is to sit too far aft in the boat. The bottom edge of the transom should be just kissing the water (which will mean that when sailing two-up the helmsman will need to be up against the thwart when going to windward, and the crew well forward, perhaps moving very slightly aft when off the wind, and well aft only in planing conditions).
Both sails should be pulling well, correctly sheeted, and with a good slot between them.
Centreboard should be fully down when beating, and less than fully down when off the wind. I myself like to have it about one quarter down when on a dead run or a very broad reach, about half down when on a beam reach, and perhaps three-quarters on a fine reach; but at least one top Gold Fleet sailor at international level has stated his preference for keeping things simple, either fully down or half down, and be content at that.
Assuming that you are not reefed, so both sails are used at full size, if you still need detectable rudder angle to keep the boat on course look to adjusting your mast rake. With a modern rig, with flexible spars and modern race sails, the tuning guides will give you a precise starting point for setting the mast rake, and you are unlikely to need anything more than a very slight adjustment. With an older “classic” rig, with stiffer spars, start with the mast upright in the gate, and then adjust shroud length as necessary until you have the helm suitably balanced. Very slight weather helm is ideal; if there is too much, lengthen the shrouds slightly, if there is none (or, worse, if there is lee helm) shorten them.
If you reef the sails, ideally reef both of them more or less pro rata. If that is not possible, you may in some circumstances find that this affects helm balance slightly, although the boat is surprisingly tolerant.
Hope this helps,
Oliver
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This reply was modified 7 years, 2 months ago by
Oliver Shaw.
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This reply was modified 7 years, 2 months ago by
Oliver Shaw.
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This reply was modified 7 years, 2 months ago by
Oliver Shaw.
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This reply was modified 7 years, 2 months ago by
Oliver Shaw.
Oliver Shaw
ModeratorWell done.
Enjoy!
Oliver
Oliver Shaw
ModeratorAccording to Collars’ website, the two species used for masts are Douglas Fir (a.k.a. Oregon Pine, or British Columbian Pine) and Sitka Spruce (a.k.a. Silver Spruce, Pacific Coast Spruce, Mast & Spar Spruce, or Tideline Spruce).
They say that Douglas Fir is the primary choice for gaffers, for its stiffness, and Sitka Spruce the primary choice for performance dinghies because it is lighter and more flexible.
http://www.collars.co.uk/uk_galaxy/info/1/masts/15/timber
Oliver
Oliver Shaw
ModeratorAccording to my records, sail number 2823 was issued in 1958-59.
If you are a member of the Class Association you can request a digital copy of our entire file for your boat. This should include the original measurement certificate, which will have details of the builder (and I would be interested to know who that was), the name of the first owner, and the date of measurement. The file is likely to also have names and clubs of at least the early owners, for however long successive owners kept up the registration, plus anything else which has crossed the office desk. However contact details of past owners are not divulged, for data protection reasons.
The building of your boat must have been about the time that R. R. Sills were emerging as the Rolls Royce of GP14 builders of their time, although I think that their real fame was with their later boats, in the 4000 to 8000-plus range. I was fortunate enough to own one of theirs, no. 4229, from early 1967 through to the mid-seventies.
Hope this helps.
Oliver
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This reply was modified 7 years, 3 months ago by
Oliver Shaw. Reason: Typo
Oliver Shaw
ModeratorLambros,
You were enquiring about buying a second-hand wooden mast. There is an offer of one, from Chris, in the correspondence headed “Spare parts for a new proud owner of a 1977 GP14 in Greece”. I think this post may perhaps have been intended for yourself, but inadvertently placed in someone else’s string.
However a potential major problem is that it is in the UK, and you presumably want it in Greece. But I would hope that there is a carrier, somewhere, which could transport it for you.
Oliver
Oliver Shaw
ModeratorOn early masts it was entirely usual for all halliard exits to be via sheaves below decks; main and jib/genoa were at the bottom of the mast and spinnaker a little above.
Modern masts usually have the halliards exiting differently.
I think, from memory (but do check) that the Class Rules leave this detail entirely optional.
The spinnaker pole should have an uphaul and a downhaul, most usually combined into a single line, with the pole clipped on to the appropriate point part way along the line. There are several guides available to spinnaker rigging.
Second-hand wooden masts do very occasionally come up for sale, most notably on eBay, although I have the rather vague impression that they are more rare than they used to be. However the vagueness of that impression may reflect no more than the fact that I have not been in the market for some years, so I no longer routinely get to know of adverts for them. It might well be worth setting up a permanent search on eBay.
As an update, a search a few minutes ago on eBay (on the search term “GP14 Mast”, and encompassing the European Union) showed that no GP14 masts, in either material, are currently listed for sale; but of course that situation can change at any time and without notice. A second search, specifically searching completed listings, shows that a wooden mast was sold in Southport in July last year, for £40, and it was collection only; but that is the only wooden one shown, and it was more than 12 months ago.
Oliver
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This reply was modified 7 years, 3 months ago by
Oliver Shaw. Reason: Correct a typo
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This reply was modified 7 years, 3 months ago by
Oliver Shaw. Reason: Update
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This reply was modified 7 years, 3 months ago by
Oliver Shaw. Reason: Clarification of the update
Oliver Shaw
ModeratorYou are correct.
Spreaders were introduced as an option in the early years of the class; I am not sure when, but certainly they did not become widely used until some time after the introduction of metal masts (in 1967).
So far as Class Rules are concerned they remain optional; however the engineering of modern metal masts is specifically designed around the use of spreaders, so they can be regarded as essential when using a modern metal mast even though still only optional under the Class Rules. By contrast, it is generally accepted that wooden masts and early metal masts do not need spreaders, and they are not normally fitted to these masts.
Oliver
Oliver Shaw
ModeratorThe obvious source of full drawings is the official plans of the original version of the boat, which should be available from the Class Association office – but don’t hold your breath … …
However you probably don’t need full working drawings, as the Class Rules (available on this site, in the Members’ Area) may well give you enough information.
http://old.gp14.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Rules_of_GPCIA_2010.pdf
Specifically, you need the position of the black bands, and this will determine the total length (leaving sensible headroom above the upper band to allow for the main halliard sheave, and a sensible amount of wood above the top of the sheave, and it will also determine the height of the gooseneck. (Rule 11.1)
You will also need the size of the square section, for which the mast gate aperture is a reliable guide, remembering that the mast needs to fit inside the aperture. Maximum width 76 mm for a wooden mast (Rule 7.5), and I think that the section is square at this point.
I have the impression that on some wooden masts, but not all, the square section below the gooseneck is slightly tapered towards the foot. Perhaps others can come in on this. Given time, I can measure the foot dimensions of at least one wooden mast, and also a series 1 metal mast, if you need these.
The positions of the various sheaves, and the height of the hounds band (where the shrouds and forestay are attached) do not seem to be defined in the Rules, but I am sure you can take these dimensions off the previous owner’s new aluminium mast.
The maximum dimensions of the sails (but not the full sail plan) are defined in the Rules (Rule 11).
If you are making your own new wooden mast, it should be hollow, made in two halves glued together longitudinally, with space for the internal halliard run routed out. There are more complex construction methods used for larger yacht masts, most notably the “bird’s mouth” technique, but just a simple 2-part construction seems to have been used for all three of the GP14 masts which I have worked on.
The horizontal cross section above the gooseneck is a modified ellipse, elongated towards the aft side in order to accommodate the luff groove for the mainsail. Use your judgement how far above the gooseneck the sail needs to enter the luff groove, and provide a nice fair entry; you may wish to let in a piece of hardwood to guide the sail into the groove, and to stand up to wear a little better than will spruce.
If you wish to have a new wooden mast professionally made, Collars of Oxford still hold the drawings and will be happy to make one to order, but I have no information on the implications for shipping the finished mast to Greece. http://www.collars.co.uk
Hope this is helpful.
Oliver
Oliver Shaw
ModeratorNo update needed, as it is still within the same range.
Sail numbers 4001-5000 were issued in 1961-2 … , as stated.
Oliver
Oliver Shaw
ModeratorSince you specifically said hull number, rather than sail number, I presume that you have indeed correctly identified the number (carved into the hog, abaft the centreboard case), rather than merely the number of the sails; the latter may or may not be original and correct for the boat.
That being so, she is just 7 boats earlier than my much loved Sills-built “Tantrum”, which I owned in the sixties and seventies. I would love to know where she has got to since I parted with her.
Sail numbers 4001-5000 were issued in 1961-2, which indicates the most likely age of your boat. However very occasional boats were not registered from new; some owners who did not intend to race saw no point in doing so. This it is conceivable, but unlikely, that she may be older than that date range suggests.
Assuming that you are a member of the Class Association you can request a digital copy of our entire data on your boat. This should include the original measurement certificate, which will give the date of build and the name of the builder, as well as the name and club of the first (registered) owner, and of all subsequent owners who have registered the boat, plus anything else about her which has crossed the desk of the office.
Oliver
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This reply was modified 7 years, 2 months ago by
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